Humm: In your opinion, what are some of the toughest issues faced by gays and lesbians living in the Ottawa Valley area?

John MacTavish: I think that probably the toughest issues are stigma and discrimination. I think individuals still deal with that fear — what will it be like if my family finds out… if my neighbours find out… what about my job. I think that’s still the number one concern for people who are making the decision of whether to let people find out. Also in small communities, if you’re not from that community you’re already a stranger, and then you have this issue on top of it.

Humm: And if you are from the community?

John: I think then that it’s a bit easier, because they know who you are, and you’re not just defined by your sexuality. For myself, Delta is my home and I’ve always been in that community, so people have gotten to know who I am and who my family is. Because of that my sexuality is just an added piece; whereas my partner moved into the area so he’s an outsider. And I think that makes it a bit more challenging for some people.

Humm: Are there different challenges for people living in smaller communities as opposed to Ottawa or Kingston?

John: Oh I think so. In the smaller communities you may come out, but what kind of support is there? There’s usually none, and you might be the only gay or lesbian person coming out in your community, so you don’t have any close support to go to, to say “what was it like for you?” or that type of stuff. So access to services is a real challenge in our smaller towns. In Ottawa there’s definitely more of a gay & lesbian community established, so you have support, you have recreation, you have social clubs… whereas in the rest of the Valley it’s just not there.

Humm: And what about differences in the challenges faced by men and women?

John: I think that sometimes it might be easier for women to be more open, but I want to be careful in that because I think we might simply perceive that it’s easier for women to come out. I think overall it’s definitely harder for society to deal with men though — society on the whole deals with male sexuality a lot more harshly than it does with female sexuality.

Humm: What about young people in our communities? I can’t even imagine how difficult it would be for a high school student to deal with coming out.

John: I’ve seen a big difference over the past decade in dealing with youth. Sometimes I’ll talk with gay youth out here and they’ve just come out and they don’t really give a hoot what anybody thinks. But youth still struggle with the same issues, and it’s still a major problem in small communities, because you have to deal with school and your peers. The other part is making sure they have information about safer sex — that’s a big issue for us from HARS. We need to know that youth can access that information. Especially gay men, because we know that the rate of infection is up in that population.

I think there are certain schools that make it easier. For instance, there’s one high school in Kingston that has an alliance for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered and questioning youth. That puts a safety net in place that makes it a bit easier for youth. I think that schools are more aware of the issues around coming out — I certainly get calls from teachers and guidance counselors asking for resources or asking how they can help a student who is coming out, or whose parent is coming out. We’ve been doing workshops about homophobia in high schools for over a decade, and I think it’s really on the radar screen now, and I would say it’s getting better.

Humm: Are some of the issues faced by gays and lesbians issues of essential human rights?

John: Yes, and that’s what we try to look at with our presentations. Some people have the idea that we want more rights, but I talk about the fact that we simply want the same rights. A lot of people don’t understand that up until the law changed recently, my partner didn’t have the right to make medical decisions for me. The person I’ve been with for 15 years could be asked by my family to leave the hospital. But once you start talking about those kinds of issues in terms of basic human rights and dignity, people start to get it. And talking about gay-bashing — the idea that someone can get beat up or murdered because of their sexuality — even in a high school setting the youth start to get it after awhile. One of the biggest challenges is to get people to look at their own homophobia: what is it, where is it, and why is it there.

Humm: You mentioned that you have a tremendously supportive community in Delta. You’re a warden in your church, and your congregation held a 15th anniversary party for you and your partner. What were some of the critical steps that you took to get to this stage?

John: Well, part of it is that I just don’t take any crap. If someone makes a homophobic comment — I don’t care who it is — I’m going to deal with it. Whether it’s in my church or one of the places I volunteer or in my workplace, I don’t let people get away with it. And part of it is just who we are — I’ve been there forever, I moved back to the community to care for my mother and my brother, and we’re just part of the community. We’re involved with the church, we’re involved with the Agricultural Society, we try to get involved with anything that’s going on. With some of the younger men in the village the homophobia issue was very uncomfortable, but then they got through that. I try to make it very comfortable for people to ask questions.

Humm: That’s so important, because I really think people have to live with and be around people who are different from themselves in order to have their barriers broken down.

John: I think that for me the biggest thing was that it took me 22 years for me to accept my own sexuality, and I can’t expect my family, my friends and my community to accept it overnight. I have to allow them some of the same freedom to ask questions about some of the stuff I might already have dealt with.

Humm: How important is a supportive community to gays and lesbians in the Valley?

John: I think that with any issue, if you have a supportive community that’s number one. People need to feel that they are part of a community, and feel that what they bring to that community is respected by others. I can’t imagine living out here and not being accepted — I don’t think I would live here. I do feel very privileged, though, that I can live as openly as I do.

Humm: How can people in our communities actively try to build a more supportive and accepting place for gays and lesbians to live?

John: People need to challenge themselves to make sure that their communities are good places to live. Sometimes that will be around rights issues, like making sure that gay couples have the same rights as straight couples. Where they find differences, if they are comfortable enough, they can advocate for change. Or they can challenge someone who makes a homophobic remark, or a racist or sexist remark. And I think that education is the best way to make people aware and make them more comfortable with issues.

Humm: Can you suggest specific ways that people can challenge themselves?

John: Reading a book. There are some incredible books out there that talk about gay and lesbian issues, that talk about coming out. Read about that struggle and the pain that a person has gone through to accept who they are; I think it’s really important to get the human side of the story. It’s also interesting to look at it as a faith issue — if you’re active in your faith and you have concerns about how the church is dealing with an issue then I think you have to voice that. I think that our churches have a lot of work to do on these issues, and churches have a very big role in rural communities. We especially need to work to create a safe place for our youth who may be questioning their sexuality, to make sure that they’re not putting themselves at risk. If people are not comfortable with their sexuality then it can lead to suicide, it can lead to addictions… it can lead to a lot of problems, so let’s get healthy about it. But I think there are lots of positive signs. There certainly has been a change over the last 15 years of communities opening up and attempting to discuss the issues.

Humm: I guess that one way for people to be challenged is for gays and lesbians to speak out, and I imagine it’s easier to speak out when you’re not afraid of being beaten up.

John: That’s true, but we also don’t make heterosexuals go out and talk about their sexuality. So there’s going to be some gays and lesbians who don’t want to speak out — it’s not because they’re uncomfortable with it, it’s just not what they want to do. But I think that those of us who are comfortable speaking out should, so that we can shed some light and allow discussions to happen. I also think that families and friends should speak out if they’re able.

Humm: Speaking of comfort levels, there seems to be a misperception that gay and lesbian couples are more likely to be publicly demonstrative than heterosexuals, and people seem to be afraid of seeing that. Where does that worry come from?

John: The media. It’s getting much better, but if you look at old TV shows, gay men and were portrayed like that. Also people get hung up on gay pride, because guess what sells those papers — a splashy front page image from a parade. So people make the assumption that that’s what we’re all like, and you have to start challenging those myths. People need to see that what I want is probably no different from what most couples want: I want a partner to spend the rest of my life with, and a nice community that I can be part of. That’s what I want.

Humm: That’s what really puzzles me about people who oppose equal marriage. Where do they get that much energy to fight against two people who just want to be together and love each other?

John: You’re right. There are other things in this world: poverty, or child abuse. Let’s put our energy into fighting those types of issues. Whether two men or two women want to live together… in the great scheme of things, just let it go. Move on to the person getting beaten up or not eating a meal today, and put our energy there.